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Posted on 06/11/20 07:58:50 AM |
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Steve Caplin
Administrator Posts: 7023 Reply  |
Challenge 831: The cauldron
A few weeks ago I visited the wonderfully Victorian building that houses Ipswich Museum: 
You'll be seeing one or two more starting images photographed in this glorious location, but the exhibit I want to share with you this week depicts a Saxon woman with a cauldron. Of course, she could do with something bubbling in that cauldron - and perhaps a more authentic background. Care to oblige? High res is here.  |
Posted on 06/11/20 12:22:22 PM |
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lwc
Hole in One Posts: 3218 Reply  |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
I had to stop fiddling with this, I was afraid I would end up making it worse... (no moose).  |
Posted on 06/11/20 8:04:12 PM |
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DavidMac
Director of Photoshop Posts: 5666 Reply  |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
I have been known in the past to be very critical of Fuse and other synthetic figures for being so lifeless, however cleverly done. Now I am finding precisely the same problem in my image here. So I want your thoughts Steve and, in the meantime, that of anyone else who thinks they may have a useful opinion. I think I have done a reasonable job of putting this together with decent matching into the right background. I've supplied a nice supporting cast of suitable children and animals. Overall I think it's an acceptably accomplished composite. BUT ...... our woman from the supplied image looks completely lifeless! The original is a well made dummy and in the context of the picture she looks good. Skin texture (the usual giveaway) is, in this case, excellent. She looks completely 'real'. So here is my conundrum: Why, in a still image which has no movement, is she so self evidently rigid and without life? What is the invisible attribute that would give her the spark of life? Any thoughts? Anyone? _________________ The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it ....... |
Posted on 07/11/20 10:04:40 AM |
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dwindt
Realism Realiser Posts: 919 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
Clever back grounds both David and Loyd. Love it. David, I spend to many hours studying my image and trying to imagine every aspect within the scene and how the scene and bodies, whatever they may be, affect their surroundings. The first thing I do is liken the color and tone of any image that I am marrying into the scene, with the back ground colors. With the layer for the new item selected, select Image; adjust; match color and tweak said image with the back ground. That contributes to fooling the eye that the image receiving light from item surroundings. From there on, it's everything that you have learnt about art and form. The woman would be hot cooking close to that fire so her skin needs some specular sheen on it. The fire would create secondary shadows from the center of the room. Subtle but there, which would additionally cast rock shadows on the toddlers close by and a soft shadow behind the woman etc. Atmospheric perspective is never easy but very effective if you get it right. Dust and smoke... Damn, do I still have to consider all that. I haven't even finished masking her yet...  _________________ The grass is greener on the other side of the fence because there is more $hit there. |
Posted on 07/11/20 11:32:38 AM |
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lwc
Hole in One Posts: 3218 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
The mind plays tricks.... we know that she is a 'dummy' and cannot let that go. I suspect that many casual (un-knowing) viewers would never come to that conclusion, at least initially. Of course my opinion is worth only what you paid for it... |
Posted on 07/11/20 12:14:38 PM |
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DavidMac
Director of Photoshop Posts: 5666 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
Yes of course it's all a question of when to say 'when'. Atmosphere is a good point. If I were filming this I would 'smoke up' physically before photographing.
And she is a surprisingly tricky little cut out. CC's new intelligent tools didn't make a particularly impressive job. Lots of handwork needed. _________________ The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it ....... |
Posted on 07/11/20 12:24:52 PM |
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DavidMac
Director of Photoshop Posts: 5666 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
Then it is probably excellent value! 
This business of foreknowledge can be very difficult. We go through it all the time when shooting Special FX. If you know where the rods and wires are hidden, or what is foreground miniature and what is real, or where the green screen starts, it can be nigh on impossible to 'unsee' it and judge dispassionately. ......... but I still think she looks lifeless ........  _________________ The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it ....... |
Posted on 07/11/20 1:04:58 PM |
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lwc
Hole in One Posts: 3218 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
I haven't found another background that I like but after reading your post David, I patched this quickie together this morning adding head, arm and hand movement along with breathing. Lot's wrong with it but until I can find a proper background it will have to do. As with all gif animations, by the time you reduce 16 million colours down to only 256 it looses a considerable amount of resolution and tone properties. 
I agree, she does look lifeless.... |
Posted on 07/11/20 1:28:06 PM |
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dwindt
Realism Realiser Posts: 919 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
and to think i'm going to try and add a Daz model to...lol. If 2 negatives make a positive, maybe 2 lifeless images will breath some life into them...  _________________ The grass is greener on the other side of the fence because there is more $hit there. |
Posted on 07/11/20 3:08:03 PM |
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michael sinclair
Off-Topic Opportunist Posts: 1864 Reply  |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
Dave I realise you have been in the movie business most of your life, and I also realise that you have an eye for what is not right, but I think your entry is pretty good as it stands; moreover, don't forget that we not really close to the woman as there is some distance involved, and furthermore, you have put a lot of thought into your lighting. Anyway you want her to look more lifelike, well there are two solutions: 1. Cut her head awf and replace with another woman's head. 2. Or do what I have done here see my improvement below. 1. Use the Sharpen tool on her face and hair 2. Make a selection on the shadowed side of her face and darken. 3 . Go into Topaz Adjust and select Mid-Details, then Edit-Fade Topaz to 44%. Of course my assistant Caplin might have other suggestions 
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Posted on 07/11/20 4:44:12 PM |
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DavidMac
Director of Photoshop Posts: 5666 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
Michael I found your suggestions when I posting my version 2. So they are not applied to my image. However, looking at yours, the sharpening and contrast in your version has helped. Not quite sure why it should ..... but it has. The Topaz adjustment I don't have available. Thank you for taking the time to do this. Loyd animation, of course, helps! Dennis I have added smoke gathering in the top. It works beautifully. Fun! However adding a hint of orange from the flames to the children and baby on the side facing the fire didn't work. It looked completely forced. I think the ambient light is strong enough to effectively swamp any effect from the flames. I decided to approach this problem of her lifelessness a quite different way. It occurred to me that it was less a graphic problem so much as a human one. I came to the conclusion that she looked lifeless because she's not involved in the scene. She's simply staring off into the middle distance in that strangely unfocused manner that you see sometimes in blind people. So I tilted her head down to look at her pot, lowered her right arm and gave her a ladle to pour with. In other words I got her involved. I really think it's worked. On a purely graphic level I also put a minute one pixel white highlight in each eye. This size it's not perceptible as such but when I turn them on and off there is a very subtle difference which stops her eyes looking dead. Thanks all of you for your suggestions. Very helpful.  _________________ The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it ....... |
Posted on 07/11/20 5:02:52 PM |
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lwc
Hole in One Posts: 3218 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
Excellent improvement David... this works. I also use the single pixel eye highlight, but only slightly different. I used one pixel black and one white to the left of black and a pixel up. Very subtle indeed, especially in the gif version. |
Posted on 09/11/20 11:15:11 AM |
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Mariner
Renaissance Mariner Posts: 3055 Reply  |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
David, I just love your background. It must have taken you ages to find. The whole composition looks good, except for being perhaps a little low on contrast. |
Posted on 09/11/20 11:42:27 AM |
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DavidMac
Director of Photoshop Posts: 5666 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
That's 'cos it's smoky. Well thats my story anyway ......... _________________ The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it ....... |
Posted on 09/11/20 2:04:29 PM |
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Mariner
Renaissance Mariner Posts: 3055 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
It's a bit monochrome. Isn't there a way of adding slightly different colours to the decor? |
Posted on 09/11/20 2:54:03 PM |
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DavidMac
Director of Photoshop Posts: 5666 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
To be honest I really liked that about it. I went to quite a lot of trouble to desaturate and colour blend all the added children and animals so they weren't different.
But then this would be a dull group if we all thought the same way .........  _________________ The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it ....... |
Posted on 09/11/20 5:53:11 PM |
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vibeke
Kreative Kiwi Posts: 2166 Reply  |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
 _________________ Perfect confidence is granted to the less talented as a consolation prize. |
Posted on 09/11/20 8:02:17 PM |
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DavidMac
Director of Photoshop Posts: 5666 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
Oh wow! Mammoth thigh? That's a mighty impressive joint she's cooking there.
Simple but effective. Clever to have used the original image in this way. _________________ The subtlety and conviction of any Photoshop effect is invariably inversely proportional to the number of knobs on it ....... |
Posted on 09/11/20 9:16:07 PM |
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lwc
Hole in One Posts: 3218 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
Very nice vibeke. |
Posted on 10/11/20 00:59:53 AM |
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vibeke
Kreative Kiwi Posts: 2166 Reply |
Re: Challenge 831: The cauldron
Thank you David and Lloyd. Big family to feed. How come my photo doesn't show? it has happened several times. _________________ Perfect confidence is granted to the less talented as a consolation prize. |
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